I was literally rendered momentarily speechless by the news that Ray Boltz is a homosexual. I first read about it on my friend Jeff’s blog (read here) and then in an article on ChristianityToday.com (read here). I didn’t see that one coming…at all!
According to the CT article, Boltz retired from Christian music several years ago, but from hearing churches all over the country belt out some of his music each week in choral anthems, no one would know. Famous for such songs as “I Pledge Allegiance to the Lamb”, “Thank You”, and “Behold the Lamb” (among many others), Boltz told his family in 2004 that he was gay, and divorced his wife early this year.
This is the creepy part–he is dating and enjoying the “normal gay life” now. Ick.
I want to be all cool about it and say, “Hey, whatever, that doesn’t undermine all the great songs he’s written that praise God.” I want to be cool like that, but honestly, I’m not. I really think, “Omigosh! Ray Boltz is gay!” And if I heard his song played, I would probably turn to whoever and whisper, “Do you know that Ray Boltz is gay?” It’s one of those things that boggles my mind and makes me ask questions.
The thing that really bothers me about the whole thing is that Ray Boltz isn’t fighting the temptations; he’s openly embracing the lifestyle. Imagine the devestation his now ex-wife must have felt, and what about his children? To grow up thinking your dad is straight and then–wham!–meet your dad’s new boyfriend! I can’t imagine the heartache.
More cosmopolitan and more accepting people than me would probably say, “Why shouldn’t Boltz live his life embracing his homosexuality? If his family really loved him, wouldn’t they be happy that he is now a ‘whole’ individual?” I imagine his family loves him no matter what, but doing something that is explicitly against the Bible does not make a person “whole;” it does the very opposite. Yes, I do believe that God loves homosexuals and that they can be Christians. However, I do not believe that living an openly gay lifestyle is biblically acceptable–yes, if you are gay, you should repress your sexuality and give your urges over to God. It’s not easy, fun, or simple.
Obviously, there’s going to be a backlash in evangelical circles, not that Boltz really cares as he is now attending one of the many colorful Metropolitan Community Churches (openly accepts the practices of gays, lesbians, transgender, bisexual & so on) throughout the United States. In a few months, they may be one of the only denominations still singing “The Anchor Holds”.
She is Beloved 
Thank you, Ray, for living in the truth. There are many lives that will be changed!
Thank you, Ray, for living in the truth. There are many lives that will be changed!
I am devastated! The Bible is more clear on this subject than many others. When we are saved we become a new creature in Christ and we no longer belong to ourself, but to God. Our body, soul, mind and spirit. So to live his life as he wants to, is to turn from living a life that belongs to Christ.
I am praying that God will bring him back to the fold, and use him to minister to others that struggle with this temptation. I mean come on, is God is going to let him into heaven based on his statement that God created me this way and I don’t think He will send me to hell, because I am living the way He created me. As one person said, well what about the men who are attracted to many women; should he tell his wife, well God created me this way so I am going to sleep with other women, and God won’t send me to hell. Or what about the the sexual deviates, rapists, and the pedophiles. Should they use that excuse also. Sexual sin is the sin that is such an abomination to God. Why do you think He destroyed Sodom and Gomorah?
Ray knows he is living a sinful, life as he has been in the Christian lifestyle for many years, so Please saints! Pray for him.
I am devastated! The Bible is more clear on this subject than many others. When we are saved we become a new creature in Christ and we no longer belong to ourself, but to God. Our body, soul, mind and spirit. So to live his life as he wants to, is to turn from living a life that belongs to Christ.
I am praying that God will bring him back to the fold, and use him to minister to others that struggle with this temptation. I mean come on, is God is going to let him into heaven based on his statement that God created me this way and I don’t think He will send me to hell, because I am living the way He created me. As one person said, well what about the men who are attracted to many women; should he tell his wife, well God created me this way so I am going to sleep with other women, and God won’t send me to hell. Or what about the the sexual deviates, rapists, and the pedophiles. Should they use that excuse also. Sexual sin is the sin that is such an abomination to God. Why do you think He destroyed Sodom and Gomorah?
Ray knows he is living a sinful, life as he has been in the Christian lifestyle for many years, so Please saints! Pray for him.
Okay, you’ve written a really good piece here, but I want to take issue with the very first sentence. Yeah, we’re all kinda reeling from this news, but we should never let what’s going on two lanes over affect how we’re driving in the lane we’re in. We each have to stand before God and give our own account, and trust me, after years of doing this, you cannot let what happens to someone else mess with your head. Surprised? Yes. Saddened? Yes. Gonna pray for Ray? I hope so. But not speechless. Speechless implies you’re stopped in your tracks. Instead, keep going about the thing that God has called you to do, even if you’re the last person on planet earth doing it. Just keep pressing on.
Okay, you’ve written a really good piece here, but I want to take issue with the very first sentence. Yeah, we’re all kinda reeling from this news, but we should never let what’s going on two lanes over affect how we’re driving in the lane we’re in. We each have to stand before God and give our own account, and trust me, after years of doing this, you cannot let what happens to someone else mess with your head. Surprised? Yes. Saddened? Yes. Gonna pray for Ray? I hope so. But not speechless. Speechless implies you’re stopped in your tracks. Instead, keep going about the thing that God has called you to do, even if you’re the last person on planet earth doing it. Just keep pressing on.
Usually what someone is doing two lanes over does affect the lane I’m driving in due to his or her dodging in front of other cars and weaving in and out of traffic. How people drive doesn’t dictate how other cars should drive, but your driving does affect everyone else on the road.
And, yes, I was speechless. I stopped in my tracks because it was that shocking to me. I’m surprised that anyone would take issue with that or why you would pick an entire sentence from a huge column to write about.
Usually what someone is doing two lanes over does affect the lane I’m driving in due to his or her dodging in front of other cars and weaving in and out of traffic. How people drive doesn’t dictate how other cars should drive, but your driving does affect everyone else on the road.
And, yes, I was speechless. I stopped in my tracks because it was that shocking to me. I’m surprised that anyone would take issue with that or why you would pick an entire sentence from a huge column to write about.
Thanks Amy for sharing your thoughts about this. I feel like I’m aging myself to say that I know who Ray Boltz is and have heard some of his music although honestly I was never much of a fan. I think you’re dead on in your comments about his lifestyle and what God thinks of it. Seems to me that God doesn’t mince any words about it in the Bible. I’m not saying that he does or that we should hate homosexuals but if you read Romans 1:26-27 then it seems to me that God considers the lifestyle and practices sin. Period.
Thanks Amy for sharing your thoughts about this. I feel like I’m aging myself to say that I know who Ray Boltz is and have heard some of his music although honestly I was never much of a fan. I think you’re dead on in your comments about his lifestyle and what God thinks of it. Seems to me that God doesn’t mince any words about it in the Bible. I’m not saying that he does or that we should hate homosexuals but if you read Romans 1:26-27 then it seems to me that God considers the lifestyle and practices sin. Period.
What I don’t understand, is that he lived a lie his entire life. How devastating for his family.
What I don’t understand, is that he lived a lie his entire life. How devastating for his family.
“Ray Boltz isn’t fighting the temptations” — Er, he did, for thirty years of self-hate and depression. And God did not deliver him… until, perhaps, now, when He revealed to Ray that this was nothing from which he needed deliverance.
By his fruits you will know him. If his new way of living produces more fruit of the Spirit than the old, then God bless him.
“Ray Boltz isn’t fighting the temptations” — Er, he did, for thirty years of self-hate and depression. And God did not deliver him… until, perhaps, now, when He revealed to Ray that this was nothing from which he needed deliverance.
By his fruits you will know him. If his new way of living produces more fruit of the Spirit than the old, then God bless him.
It’s so much easier to judge others, isn’t it? I’m overweight. I suppose that negates any potential for ministry on my part. After all, I’m guilty of gluttony. And, since I don’t lose weight, clearly I’ve embraced a sinful lifestyle. I was reading Romans today and, while the entire book should be embraced, Romans 3:22-24 comes to mind, emphasis on ALL:
“This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
I guess I just want to point out that ALL of us are sinners, whether it is blatant or in secret. NONE of us is without sin.
It’s so much easier to judge others, isn’t it? I’m overweight. I suppose that negates any potential for ministry on my part. After all, I’m guilty of gluttony. And, since I don’t lose weight, clearly I’ve embraced a sinful lifestyle. I was reading Romans today and, while the entire book should be embraced, Romans 3:22-24 comes to mind, emphasis on ALL:
“This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
I guess I just want to point out that ALL of us are sinners, whether it is blatant or in secret. NONE of us is without sin.
Just because you’re overweight does not mean that you are a glutton, there are other health conditions, medications, and what not that have been proven scientifically to cause obesity. Secondly, being overweight or not losing weight does not mean you are embraced a sinful lifestyle. Going out and saying, “I am happy being fat and believe this is God’s plan for my life and will continue to enjoy eating all the ice cream and stuff that is bad for me because I still believe in Jesus” is not OK. There is a difference between struggling with weight issues and just not giving a crap.
Just like there is a difference between struggling with homosexuality and actually embracing the gay lifestyle. To point to Romans 3:22-24 oversimplifies the verse and takes it out of the context of the rest of Romans, which clearly in the first chapter lays that homosexuality is a defiling of the body.
As for “judging,” we are called to hold brothers and sisters accountable. If they are “of the world,” then the world judges its own. Sure, we have to be careful about the planks in our eyes, but that doesn’t mean that when others are clearly defying Scripture that we shouldn’t speak up.
Homosexuality is a sin as is not feeding the poor and gluttony and a ton of others. I’m not saying that Ray Boltz is a horrible person, that he’s not a Christian or that he’s banned from Heaven. I am merely pointing out that the gay lifestyle is wrong and sinful as according to Scripture.
Just because you’re overweight does not mean that you are a glutton, there are other health conditions, medications, and what not that have been proven scientifically to cause obesity. Secondly, being overweight or not losing weight does not mean you are embraced a sinful lifestyle. Going out and saying, “I am happy being fat and believe this is God’s plan for my life and will continue to enjoy eating all the ice cream and stuff that is bad for me because I still believe in Jesus” is not OK. There is a difference between struggling with weight issues and just not giving a crap.
Just like there is a difference between struggling with homosexuality and actually embracing the gay lifestyle. To point to Romans 3:22-24 oversimplifies the verse and takes it out of the context of the rest of Romans, which clearly in the first chapter lays that homosexuality is a defiling of the body.
As for “judging,” we are called to hold brothers and sisters accountable. If they are “of the world,” then the world judges its own. Sure, we have to be careful about the planks in our eyes, but that doesn’t mean that when others are clearly defying Scripture that we shouldn’t speak up.
Homosexuality is a sin as is not feeding the poor and gluttony and a ton of others. I’m not saying that Ray Boltz is a horrible person, that he’s not a Christian or that he’s banned from Heaven. I am merely pointing out that the gay lifestyle is wrong and sinful as according to Scripture.
Amy,
I am very sorry. In my world, I’ve seen and heard of so many people go off the rails because of something that happened to someone else. That just happens to be my perspective; that’s where I’m coming from; and I try to use opportunities to remind people that no matter what else is going on, we have to press on with the writing of our own story and the living out of our own lives before God. Again, I’m sorry.
Amy,
I am very sorry. In my world, I’ve seen and heard of so many people go off the rails because of something that happened to someone else. That just happens to be my perspective; that’s where I’m coming from; and I try to use opportunities to remind people that no matter what else is going on, we have to press on with the writing of our own story and the living out of our own lives before God. Again, I’m sorry.
hey amy,
well, you know how i lean on this.
i appreciate him being able to come out of the closet after so many years. imagine the songs he can write now–fully aware of being loved and created by God.
we use the word “sin” so much … i am one who prefers “beloved.”
hey amy,
well, you know how i lean on this.
i appreciate him being able to come out of the closet after so many years. imagine the songs he can write now–fully aware of being loved and created by God.
we use the word “sin” so much … i am one who prefers “beloved.”
And you know what’s cool about it, Renee? I totally respect your opinion and love you for it. 🙂
And you know what’s cool about it, Renee? I totally respect your opinion and love you for it. 🙂
*kisses* .. i love & am so glad we are friends. (i’ve been having bead fun! oh, so very exciting! except, i make things and then take them apart again, lol.)
*kisses* .. i love & am so glad we are friends. (i’ve been having bead fun! oh, so very exciting! except, i make things and then take them apart again, lol.)
I have enjoyed Mr. Boltz’s music and am not going to judge him, even though I believe anyone who chooses to live in sin will not make it to heaven (myself included). We are all prone to sin, but we have a choice whether or not to live in sin. I am not going to judge him but I would like to make a comment and ask a question. The comment i would like to make is if I am wrong and people who live in sin whether iit is homosexuality, alcholism, etc. I will be the first to say I was wrong when we have all died and stand before Christ. The question I would like to ask is what if I am right? Just something to think about. I hope you all have a blessed day and remember that God loves each and every one of us but he hates sin, because that is why Jesus died and I don’t believe we should take sin lightly.
God Bless.
I have enjoyed Mr. Boltz’s music and am not going to judge him, even though I believe anyone who chooses to live in sin will not make it to heaven (myself included). We are all prone to sin, but we have a choice whether or not to live in sin. I am not going to judge him but I would like to make a comment and ask a question. The comment i would like to make is if I am wrong and people who live in sin whether iit is homosexuality, alcholism, etc. I will be the first to say I was wrong when we have all died and stand before Christ. The question I would like to ask is what if I am right? Just something to think about. I hope you all have a blessed day and remember that God loves each and every one of us but he hates sin, because that is why Jesus died and I don’t believe we should take sin lightly.
God Bless.
I appreciate your clear statments about what you believe. My heart was broken by this news. Embracing the sin will not take away the guilt. I will continue to pray that the Truth will set Ray free.
I appreciate your clear statments about what you believe. My heart was broken by this news. Embracing the sin will not take away the guilt. I will continue to pray that the Truth will set Ray free.
Ray Boltz, Lonnie Latham, Paul Barnes, Ted Haggard, Donnie McClurkin…the list of closeted evangelicals goes on and on and on.
From this atheist’s perspective, it seems that those that bleat the longest and loudest about their Christianity are always the ones fighting their true nature. It’s both sad and hilarious. In my world, anybody who starts shouting the gospel is also shouting, “I’m GAY, but I can’t handle it.”
And let’s not forget the actually (presumably) heterosexual leaders of the evangelical world, folks like Jim Bakker (convicted swindler), Robert Tilton (convicted swindler), Oral Roberts (alleged swindler), Richard Roberts (sued for swindling), Joe Barron (arrested for pedophilia), Kent Hovind (in prison for tax evasion), Phil Driscoll (in prison for tax evasion), Henry Lyons (in prison for racketeering)…we could list many, MANY more, but that’s what Wikipedia is for, I suppose.
Are there any “stars” of the evangelical world that aren’t closeted homosexuals, convicted con artists, child molesters, or self-enriching fraudsters?
Sure doesn’t seem like it.
I’m almost breathless with anticipation for the downfall of Ted Osteen, Pat Roberts (charged but not convicted tax evader), and their ilk. It will be, as it always is, delicious.
Ray Boltz, Lonnie Latham, Paul Barnes, Ted Haggard, Donnie McClurkin…the list of closeted evangelicals goes on and on and on.
From this atheist’s perspective, it seems that those that bleat the longest and loudest about their Christianity are always the ones fighting their true nature. It’s both sad and hilarious. In my world, anybody who starts shouting the gospel is also shouting, “I’m GAY, but I can’t handle it.”
And let’s not forget the actually (presumably) heterosexual leaders of the evangelical world, folks like Jim Bakker (convicted swindler), Robert Tilton (convicted swindler), Oral Roberts (alleged swindler), Richard Roberts (sued for swindling), Joe Barron (arrested for pedophilia), Kent Hovind (in prison for tax evasion), Phil Driscoll (in prison for tax evasion), Henry Lyons (in prison for racketeering)…we could list many, MANY more, but that’s what Wikipedia is for, I suppose.
Are there any “stars” of the evangelical world that aren’t closeted homosexuals, convicted con artists, child molesters, or self-enriching fraudsters?
Sure doesn’t seem like it.
I’m almost breathless with anticipation for the downfall of Ted Osteen, Pat Roberts (charged but not convicted tax evader), and their ilk. It will be, as it always is, delicious.
Paul, it’s alright. 🙂
Joe, if you’re looking for “fallen” people who profess Christ, let me tell you that the church is FULL of them. All of us have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God, and while some of the “superstars” have screwed up royally, there are a ton of people you don’t know who are doing amazing things for God. Jesus never said we’d be superstars; in fact, He said the very opposite.
But why take such delight in the downfall of others? Does it “prove” atheism to be true? Not really. It just shows that people who say they follow God screw up…and just because someone says they follow God doesn’t make it true. Life and deeds should measure up.
There have been some people who aren’t SUPERSTARS, that live for God and have been personally encouraging to me in my walk–Reese Roper of Five Iron Frenzy, author Philip Yancey, Bebo Norman, and many, many others. Maybe the superstars just can’t handle the pressure.
And it could be that I’m young, but I’ve never heard of half the people you’ve mentioned.
Paul, it’s alright. 🙂
Joe, if you’re looking for “fallen” people who profess Christ, let me tell you that the church is FULL of them. All of us have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God, and while some of the “superstars” have screwed up royally, there are a ton of people you don’t know who are doing amazing things for God. Jesus never said we’d be superstars; in fact, He said the very opposite.
But why take such delight in the downfall of others? Does it “prove” atheism to be true? Not really. It just shows that people who say they follow God screw up…and just because someone says they follow God doesn’t make it true. Life and deeds should measure up.
There have been some people who aren’t SUPERSTARS, that live for God and have been personally encouraging to me in my walk–Reese Roper of Five Iron Frenzy, author Philip Yancey, Bebo Norman, and many, many others. Maybe the superstars just can’t handle the pressure.
And it could be that I’m young, but I’ve never heard of half the people you’ve mentioned.
I MUST SAY I WAS SO SURPRISED ABOUT RAY BOLTZ , I WILL CONTINUE TO SING SOME OF HIS SONGS. SO AS NOT TO JUDGE I WOULD SAY TO ANYONE SEEK OUT GODS WORD, PRAY FOR GOD TO DELIVER THESE & ALL FOCKS FROM THEIR SINS .REMEMBER GOD LOVES THE SINNER NOT THE SIN.
I MUST SAY I WAS SO SURPRISED ABOUT RAY BOLTZ , I WILL CONTINUE TO SING SOME OF HIS SONGS. SO AS NOT TO JUDGE I WOULD SAY TO ANYONE SEEK OUT GODS WORD, PRAY FOR GOD TO DELIVER THESE & ALL FOCKS FROM THEIR SINS .REMEMBER GOD LOVES THE SINNER NOT THE SIN.
Wow, I can’t believe that their are people who condone sinning regardless if its over eating or homosexuality. Sure, we’re all sinners, but aren’t we still suppose to strive to overcome the sin in our lives?
Wow, I can’t believe that their are people who condone sinning regardless if its over eating or homosexuality. Sure, we’re all sinners, but aren’t we still suppose to strive to overcome the sin in our lives?
It felt like it did when I first heard that Kirk Talley was gay. Unless the days be shortened, no flesh shall be saved. For our adversary the devil walks to and fro seeking whom he may devour. God help us all.
It felt like it did when I first heard that Kirk Talley was gay. Unless the days be shortened, no flesh shall be saved. For our adversary the devil walks to and fro seeking whom he may devour. God help us all.
What a sad situation with Boltz. I do hope the Christian world will pray for him and also exhort him. Remember that we are called to exhort one another when we see a brother in sin. Here’s a fictional conversation between Ray Boltz and Jesus…
http://shawnbarr.wordpress.com/2008/09/26/ray-boltz-talks-to-jesus/
What a sad situation with Boltz. I do hope the Christian world will pray for him and also exhort him. Remember that we are called to exhort one another when we see a brother in sin. Here’s a fictional conversation between Ray Boltz and Jesus…
http://shawnbarr.wordpress.com/2008/09/26/ray-boltz-talks-to-jesus/
What a sad situation with Boltz. I do hope the Christian world will pray for him and also exhort him. Remember that we are called to exhort one another when we see a brother in sin. Here’s a fictional conversation between Ray Boltz and Jesus…
http://shawnbarr.wordpress.com/2008/09/26/ray-boltz-talks-to-jesus/
What a sad situation with Boltz. I do hope the Christian world will pray for him and also exhort him. Remember that we are called to exhort one another when we see a brother in sin. Here’s a fictional conversation between Ray Boltz and Jesus…
http://shawnbarr.wordpress.com/2008/09/26/ray-boltz-talks-to-jesus/
I do believe homosexually is WRONG the bible speaks strongly against it u cannot be saved and be gay i was hurt to find out that ray boltz is gay i looked up to him as an on fire christian i loved his music but we are not God its not are place to judge him o and the people gossiping about him sinning are also sinning guesr what gossip is wrong also so leave him alone you dont have to listen to his music or anything MIND YOUR OWN BUSSINESS im sure you have enough problems let him and God take care of it
I do believe homosexually is WRONG the bible speaks strongly against it u cannot be saved and be gay i was hurt to find out that ray boltz is gay i looked up to him as an on fire christian i loved his music but we are not God its not are place to judge him o and the people gossiping about him sinning are also sinning guesr what gossip is wrong also so leave him alone you dont have to listen to his music or anything MIND YOUR OWN BUSSINESS im sure you have enough problems let him and God take care of it
I also believe the same about kirk talley
I also believe the same about kirk talley
This was a surprise for me for multiple reasons. I knew Ray briefly when we were both in a cultish charismatic group in rural Indiana in the late 70’s. (Mulitiple people died in this group because we did not believe in going to the doctor. It was a lack of faith.) Ray and his wife left the group sometime around 1976 or 1977.
Fast forward. I eventually ended up working in the Christian music industry in Nashville in the 80’s. Low and behold, there’s Ray and his career is red hot. For awhile there, his sales were right up there with Amy Grant. Unlike many other “stars”, I never heard a bad thing about Ray. He seemed to be the “real deal”, according to some.
Fast forward again to today. I am so sad to learn of this. Sad for Ray and his family and sad for Christians who believe that every word of the bible is somehow God speaking inerrantly to mankind. A claim that, frankly, even conservative bible scholars can not and do not make. Obviously this subject alone has inspired volumes upon volumes. I would just urge believers to do some of their own study, beyond the writings of Lee Strobel and Josh McDowell. Why be afraid of the truth? Read some “scary” authors, like Bart Ehrman or Robert Funk. Read them prayerfully and with an open mind. Then read their critics. Then go back and read the scary guys again and read the “safe” guys again. Take your time. Be honest about your own doubts and questions and then make up your own mind.
The question of homosexuality should be a troubling one to you who believe that every word of the bible is God speaking. In his most recent book, Tony Campolo says something to the effect that this issue is no longer a mystery. He says that there is very little, if ANY doubt anymore, that homosexuality is genetic and hardwired for at least some percentage of homosexuals. This is Tony Campolo, a committed, bible believing professor of sociology and a man with a long, faithful track record within the Christian community. Think about the plight of hermaphrodites. These poor souls are born with both male and female sex organs. Did God do that? Are they an “abomination”? It is very sad that a certain brand of Christianity encourages a blind mouthing of these words, “God said it, I believe it, that settles it.” No, it doesn’t settle anything, my friend. An honest look at church history is all it takes to show you that groups have hated and even killed each other, though each claimed to believe the same bible, word for word. Again and again, decade after decade and century after century, groups splinter off and form new groups because they believe they have it figured out better than the original group. And so it goes.
I’m sad for the Ray Boltz’s of the world, because they lived within a rigid, closed system and tried desperately to make their reality fit what they believed to be God’s truth. And they did so because they believed their very souls were at stake. And I’m sad for the families left in the brokenness and confusion that is the inevitable result.
This was a surprise for me for multiple reasons. I knew Ray briefly when we were both in a cultish charismatic group in rural Indiana in the late 70’s. (Mulitiple people died in this group because we did not believe in going to the doctor. It was a lack of faith.) Ray and his wife left the group sometime around 1976 or 1977.
Fast forward. I eventually ended up working in the Christian music industry in Nashville in the 80’s. Low and behold, there’s Ray and his career is red hot. For awhile there, his sales were right up there with Amy Grant. Unlike many other “stars”, I never heard a bad thing about Ray. He seemed to be the “real deal”, according to some.
Fast forward again to today. I am so sad to learn of this. Sad for Ray and his family and sad for Christians who believe that every word of the bible is somehow God speaking inerrantly to mankind. A claim that, frankly, even conservative bible scholars can not and do not make. Obviously this subject alone has inspired volumes upon volumes. I would just urge believers to do some of their own study, beyond the writings of Lee Strobel and Josh McDowell. Why be afraid of the truth? Read some “scary” authors, like Bart Ehrman or Robert Funk. Read them prayerfully and with an open mind. Then read their critics. Then go back and read the scary guys again and read the “safe” guys again. Take your time. Be honest about your own doubts and questions and then make up your own mind.
The question of homosexuality should be a troubling one to you who believe that every word of the bible is God speaking. In his most recent book, Tony Campolo says something to the effect that this issue is no longer a mystery. He says that there is very little, if ANY doubt anymore, that homosexuality is genetic and hardwired for at least some percentage of homosexuals. This is Tony Campolo, a committed, bible believing professor of sociology and a man with a long, faithful track record within the Christian community. Think about the plight of hermaphrodites. These poor souls are born with both male and female sex organs. Did God do that? Are they an “abomination”? It is very sad that a certain brand of Christianity encourages a blind mouthing of these words, “God said it, I believe it, that settles it.” No, it doesn’t settle anything, my friend. An honest look at church history is all it takes to show you that groups have hated and even killed each other, though each claimed to believe the same bible, word for word. Again and again, decade after decade and century after century, groups splinter off and form new groups because they believe they have it figured out better than the original group. And so it goes.
I’m sad for the Ray Boltz’s of the world, because they lived within a rigid, closed system and tried desperately to make their reality fit what they believed to be God’s truth. And they did so because they believed their very souls were at stake. And I’m sad for the families left in the brokenness and confusion that is the inevitable result.
I have yet to see conclusive evidence supporting the idea that people are “hardwired” to be homosexuals. The study that this “fact” seems to be based on studied the brains of men who died of AIDS, and there were many anomalies. And, by the way, there are a great deal of people who agree with Tony Campolo on issues of theology. No doubt he is a gifted speaker and an incredible advocate for the poor and oppressed and I admire his work. But just because he says it doesn’t make it true.
Yes, the Bible has been used to do many horrible things. But what if you folks are ignoring the Bible to say, “Hey, whatever, be gay, sleep around, it’s all cool”? I’m tired of feeling like I’m a horrible, intolerant person for BELIEVING the Bible and what it says, and not thinking it’s an antiquated book of fables. Because, my friend, it is not.
Just because I don’t think homosexuality is necessarily genetic (and even if it is, it should be wrestled with, not embraced) doesn’t mean that I dislike Ray Boltz or his music. Or to say that I ever really liked his music. I’m just merely talking about the issue…and yes, offering a bit of my opinion.
Incidentally, the whole “born with both sexual organs” things is a completely separate issue that shouldn’t be oversimplified in a debate about homosexuality.
I have yet to see conclusive evidence supporting the idea that people are “hardwired” to be homosexuals. The study that this “fact” seems to be based on studied the brains of men who died of AIDS, and there were many anomalies. And, by the way, there are a great deal of people who agree with Tony Campolo on issues of theology. No doubt he is a gifted speaker and an incredible advocate for the poor and oppressed and I admire his work. But just because he says it doesn’t make it true.
Yes, the Bible has been used to do many horrible things. But what if you folks are ignoring the Bible to say, “Hey, whatever, be gay, sleep around, it’s all cool”? I’m tired of feeling like I’m a horrible, intolerant person for BELIEVING the Bible and what it says, and not thinking it’s an antiquated book of fables. Because, my friend, it is not.
Just because I don’t think homosexuality is necessarily genetic (and even if it is, it should be wrestled with, not embraced) doesn’t mean that I dislike Ray Boltz or his music. Or to say that I ever really liked his music. I’m just merely talking about the issue…and yes, offering a bit of my opinion.
Incidentally, the whole “born with both sexual organs” things is a completely separate issue that shouldn’t be oversimplified in a debate about homosexuality.
I’m no expert on this issue, but I do know there has been more recent research involving the hormonal balance in the mother’s womb during the pregnancy. I guess my question to you, Amy, would be, “what if there IS conclusive proof revealed tomorrow (if it isn’t already). Will you say, “well, every word of the Bible is still true anyway, so just deal with it?” Turn it around. Imagine, as a heterosexual, being told that it’s a sin to have sexual relations with the opposite sex. That you must have a same sex orientation or remain celibate for the rest of your life.
Concerning hermaphrodites, it certainly is related to this discussion. How is it “oversimplifying”? Estimates range between 1 to 4 percent of the population have some degree of intersexism. Regardless of the percentage, it is not just the one in a million freak in a circus. For every one of these individuals, it’s an excruciating life struggle. How does one “wrestle” with this one? My point is that a blind belief in the bible leads to oversimplifying and naive, black and white answers. This is the mentality that was used to support slavery and the belief that the black race was subhuman. A very common doctrine among Christians, even into the 1950’s. The “Christ Killer” doctrine has been used historically to justify the extermination of the Jews. Martin Luther wrote that the Jews should be imprisoned or killed and all of their goods taken from them. Richard Land, president of the Southern Baptist Convention, once stated in his defense of the young earth doctrine that God had placed million year old fossils in the six thousand year old rocks. It’s no wonder the church has lost credibility with the culture at large.
It may be comforting to think that the answers are clear, neat and tidy, but I submit to you that they are not. I mentioned that even conservative Bible scholars do not make that claim. There is no such thing as a Bible scholar believing in inerrancy (every word without error). I’m talking about scholars—the ones who do the translating and produciing of the various versions that we all read.
What does it take for Christians to admit that perhaps the Bible is not all true?
I’m no expert on this issue, but I do know there has been more recent research involving the hormonal balance in the mother’s womb during the pregnancy. I guess my question to you, Amy, would be, “what if there IS conclusive proof revealed tomorrow (if it isn’t already). Will you say, “well, every word of the Bible is still true anyway, so just deal with it?” Turn it around. Imagine, as a heterosexual, being told that it’s a sin to have sexual relations with the opposite sex. That you must have a same sex orientation or remain celibate for the rest of your life.
Concerning hermaphrodites, it certainly is related to this discussion. How is it “oversimplifying”? Estimates range between 1 to 4 percent of the population have some degree of intersexism. Regardless of the percentage, it is not just the one in a million freak in a circus. For every one of these individuals, it’s an excruciating life struggle. How does one “wrestle” with this one? My point is that a blind belief in the bible leads to oversimplifying and naive, black and white answers. This is the mentality that was used to support slavery and the belief that the black race was subhuman. A very common doctrine among Christians, even into the 1950’s. The “Christ Killer” doctrine has been used historically to justify the extermination of the Jews. Martin Luther wrote that the Jews should be imprisoned or killed and all of their goods taken from them. Richard Land, president of the Southern Baptist Convention, once stated in his defense of the young earth doctrine that God had placed million year old fossils in the six thousand year old rocks. It’s no wonder the church has lost credibility with the culture at large.
It may be comforting to think that the answers are clear, neat and tidy, but I submit to you that they are not. I mentioned that even conservative Bible scholars do not make that claim. There is no such thing as a Bible scholar believing in inerrancy (every word without error). I’m talking about scholars—the ones who do the translating and produciing of the various versions that we all read.
What does it take for Christians to admit that perhaps the Bible is not all true?
Yes the whole bible is true ray is wrong and so r u so quit misleading people
Yes the whole bible is true ray is wrong and so r u so quit misleading people
Crissy, I understand that it’s a scary thing to have to think about things that don’t fit neatly into a conservative world view. Certainty can be a lot more comfortable than uncertainty and mystery. If you choose to believe the Christian story, that is up to you. I’m not trying to talk anyone out of their core beliefs. But you really should think about the tougher questions, because these things have a way of showing up on your doorstep. What I’ve shared in these two posts are factual. You can keep on chanting “God said it, I believe it, that settles it” till the cows come home, but it doesn’t make it true. Look in the footnote section of your bible. You’ll see that the editors who put the particular version you read together has included some of the issues that they have tried to figure out as they produced the translation. For instance, the story about the woman taken in adultery. The Scribes and Pharisees bring her to Jesus and demand that he tell them what to do with her. etc. You know the story. It’s one of the most beautiful pictures of grace and forgiveness in the New Testament. Only problem is that it was not in the original manuscripts. Look at the footnotes, I’m not making this up. The point is that at one time it WAS accepted as a real historical event, then later, better scholarship determined that it was not. Same is true of Mark 16:9-20. Look at the footnotes.
Again, if you believe that Jesus died for your sins, fine. But base your belief on what really IS, not on blind acceptance of somebody’s tradition. Christianity claims to be based on real, historical events. If I don’t find it believable, conservative Christianity tells me that I will spend eternity in torment. Do I not have a right to insist that Christianity make a convincing case with real, hard evidence to support such a claim?
Crissy, I understand that it’s a scary thing to have to think about things that don’t fit neatly into a conservative world view. Certainty can be a lot more comfortable than uncertainty and mystery. If you choose to believe the Christian story, that is up to you. I’m not trying to talk anyone out of their core beliefs. But you really should think about the tougher questions, because these things have a way of showing up on your doorstep. What I’ve shared in these two posts are factual. You can keep on chanting “God said it, I believe it, that settles it” till the cows come home, but it doesn’t make it true. Look in the footnote section of your bible. You’ll see that the editors who put the particular version you read together has included some of the issues that they have tried to figure out as they produced the translation. For instance, the story about the woman taken in adultery. The Scribes and Pharisees bring her to Jesus and demand that he tell them what to do with her. etc. You know the story. It’s one of the most beautiful pictures of grace and forgiveness in the New Testament. Only problem is that it was not in the original manuscripts. Look at the footnotes, I’m not making this up. The point is that at one time it WAS accepted as a real historical event, then later, better scholarship determined that it was not. Same is true of Mark 16:9-20. Look at the footnotes.
Again, if you believe that Jesus died for your sins, fine. But base your belief on what really IS, not on blind acceptance of somebody’s tradition. Christianity claims to be based on real, historical events. If I don’t find it believable, conservative Christianity tells me that I will spend eternity in torment. Do I not have a right to insist that Christianity make a convincing case with real, hard evidence to support such a claim?
I would like to get in touch with Jeff Spencer. I went to the Glory Barn/Faith Assembly as well. It sounds like you and I would agree on several issues here, and if you’d like to, please e-mail me at indicarol50@yahoo.com. This Ray Boltz thread may be dead, but it would be interesting to e-mail with you. Thanks.
I would like to get in touch with Jeff Spencer. I went to the Glory Barn/Faith Assembly as well. It sounds like you and I would agree on several issues here, and if you’d like to, please e-mail me at indicarol50@yahoo.com. This Ray Boltz thread may be dead, but it would be interesting to e-mail with you. Thanks.
Its too simplistic to say its in the Bible and thats that. The Bible wasn’t written in English and thus was effected by traslators. The Bible makes it very clear that slavery is legal and approved by God, should we restore slavery? What about sections of the Bible that contradict other sections?
Its too simplistic to say its in the Bible and thats that. The Bible wasn’t written in English and thus was effected by traslators. The Bible makes it very clear that slavery is legal and approved by God, should we restore slavery? What about sections of the Bible that contradict other sections?
omg.. i was just googling some information on something else and came into this post. i must say i’m so very very surprised too. i can’t handle the fact how someone so “godly” can in the end turn to gay? i’m so sorry for the wife.
SIGH
i love his songs too. esp ‘thank you for giving to the Lord’… the words are so beautiful..and..how can he trade his faith to gay’s love? can’t they be friends???
it’s just saddening to read abt this…
but as far as my hurt goes for him.. i will continue to pray that he will come back and forsake his ways.. 😦
i agree with ur post too amy…i share the same feeling as you are. i’ll prolly go back telling my siblings abt this.. 😛
omg.. i was just googling some information on something else and came into this post. i must say i’m so very very surprised too. i can’t handle the fact how someone so “godly” can in the end turn to gay? i’m so sorry for the wife.
SIGH
i love his songs too. esp ‘thank you for giving to the Lord’… the words are so beautiful..and..how can he trade his faith to gay’s love? can’t they be friends???
it’s just saddening to read abt this…
but as far as my hurt goes for him.. i will continue to pray that he will come back and forsake his ways.. 😦
i agree with ur post too amy…i share the same feeling as you are. i’ll prolly go back telling my siblings abt this.. 😛
Wow I can’t believe what I’m reading…You Christians are full of hate and ignorance…You preach and talk about love and yet you judge people because of what they really are. Do you really think that being gay is a choice? If you think that then you are truly and idiot and have no love and compassion because people are made differently. Interesting that God never mentioned being gay in the ten Commandments. Also Jesus never mentioned it either you should read your bible. It only takes about a man with a man in leviticus however that was the old testament and Jesus came to make a new testament. The old law does not apply. It also says in leviticus if you eat shellfish you are of sin, and its ok to stone a woman if she is not a virgin. Do you think thats ok too? Exactly my point. You should not judge anyone until you have been in their shoes. Ray Boltz is an excellent singer, and for those that said what about his wife. We’ll he tried to live your life and realized he was living a lie. Good for him that he came out so all those other gay Christians that are out there could see that they are everywhere, and not to make the mistake of trying to be something your not…You wonder why gay people don’t like to go to church and some don’t even believe in God its because of people like yourselves that preach hate and ignorance…By the way this is coming from a gay Christian….Learn to love and respect others thats what Jesus would do!!!!!
Wow I can’t believe what I’m reading…You Christians are full of hate and ignorance…You preach and talk about love and yet you judge people because of what they really are. Do you really think that being gay is a choice? If you think that then you are truly and idiot and have no love and compassion because people are made differently. Interesting that God never mentioned being gay in the ten Commandments. Also Jesus never mentioned it either you should read your bible. It only takes about a man with a man in leviticus however that was the old testament and Jesus came to make a new testament. The old law does not apply. It also says in leviticus if you eat shellfish you are of sin, and its ok to stone a woman if she is not a virgin. Do you think thats ok too? Exactly my point. You should not judge anyone until you have been in their shoes. Ray Boltz is an excellent singer, and for those that said what about his wife. We’ll he tried to live your life and realized he was living a lie. Good for him that he came out so all those other gay Christians that are out there could see that they are everywhere, and not to make the mistake of trying to be something your not…You wonder why gay people don’t like to go to church and some don’t even believe in God its because of people like yourselves that preach hate and ignorance…By the way this is coming from a gay Christian….Learn to love and respect others thats what Jesus would do!!!!!
Sorry for the misspelling above I was so angry when I wrote this message.
Sorry for the misspelling above I was so angry when I wrote this message.
I’m seriously tired of defending my exegesis when it is clearly laid out in my original post (or in that of my ‘Gay Marriage’ post).
But just for the record…I don’t think saying that being gay is immoral is preaching hate and all that garbage. It is disagreeing with one’s life choice, which is that I am free to do.
It seems a little more intolerant of others NOT to allow me to have an opinion on the matter.
I’m seriously tired of defending my exegesis when it is clearly laid out in my original post (or in that of my ‘Gay Marriage’ post).
But just for the record…I don’t think saying that being gay is immoral is preaching hate and all that garbage. It is disagreeing with one’s life choice, which is that I am free to do.
It seems a little more intolerant of others NOT to allow me to have an opinion on the matter.
yes, amy i agree with you.
david..all of us are entitled for our own opinions.
btw, we are not judging..we are just voicing/ expressing what’s we think.
yes, gay & lesbians lifestyle is indeed a choice. everything is a choice…
either Ray or someone else is gay or not i’m sure all the non-gay/les christians love them very much. i do love Ray Boltz and no doubt he IS so gifted.
now you are judging us for hating/not loving/understanding them..pls be fair and do not include the whole community when it’s only one who voiced our their hatred/anger.
also one more thing… i’m angry because he has a wife and he is already thinking of another man. is he faithful? i don’t know…
but i do feel sorry for his wife…
yes, amy i agree with you.
david..all of us are entitled for our own opinions.
btw, we are not judging..we are just voicing/ expressing what’s we think.
yes, gay & lesbians lifestyle is indeed a choice. everything is a choice…
either Ray or someone else is gay or not i’m sure all the non-gay/les christians love them very much. i do love Ray Boltz and no doubt he IS so gifted.
now you are judging us for hating/not loving/understanding them..pls be fair and do not include the whole community when it’s only one who voiced our their hatred/anger.
also one more thing… i’m angry because he has a wife and he is already thinking of another man. is he faithful? i don’t know…
but i do feel sorry for his wife…